Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Meeting date: Wednesday, April 17, 2024

Official Report 1168KB pdf

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Business Motions

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-12867, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Any member who wishes to speak against the motion should press their request-to-speak button now. I call George Adam to move the motion.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following programme of business—

Tuesday 23 April 2024

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill

followed by Financial Resolution: Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill

followed by Appointment of Members of the Standards Commission for Scotland

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 24 April 2024

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;
Justice and Home Affairs

followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

9.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 25 April 2024

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills

followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

Tuesday 30 April 2024

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 1 May 2024

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Wellbeing Economy, Net Zero and Energy;
Finance and Parliamentary Business

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 2 May 2024

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Transport

followed by Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee Debate: Petition PE1887: Create an Unborn Victims of Violence Act

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 22 April 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[George Adam]

I call Meghan Gallacher to speak to and move amendment S6M-12867.1.

17:11  

Yesterday, I raised concerns about the ability of elected members to seek a statement from the Scottish National Party Government on the Cass review. I have tried as many levers as possible to allow MSPs to raise questions about the Cass review findings and whether the Government will adopt all 32 recommendations.

Does Meghan Gallacher agree that it would be useful for the Government, and anyone else, to take time and reflect on the matter before making a statement?

The review has been years in the making and the Government has had more than a week since the review report was submitted. If John Mason will afford me the opportunity to do so, I will go into examples of other countries that happen to be following the pathway that is set out in the Cass review.

In his response yesterday, George Adam said that

“the Cass review deals with services in NHS England, not in NHS Scotland.”—[Official Report, 16 April 2024; c 5.]

That is true. However, his response shows a clear lack of a basic understanding of the overall picture. Scottish children do not respond differently to puberty-suppressing hormones from children in England. If he had read the report, he would also know that Scotland is referenced in it. The notion that Scotland is different from the rest of the United Kingdom is for the birds. Whether George Adam and his Government like it or not, the Cass review raises serious concerns about gender care, especially around psychological support, assessments and evidence.

Many MSPs have reiterated the importance of making sure that the conversation is respectful. I agree. That is why I have been calling for a statement, so that all opinions can be expressed and so that we can finally get some answers from the Government.

I have tried to get answers again today. During health and social care portfolio question time, I asked the simple question,

“will the Scottish Government adopt the recommendations of the Cass review, including limiting the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones?”

I did not get an answer.

Nor did Carol Mochan get an answer when she asked when a ministerial statement would be given. There was no response from the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health, Jenni Minto. I will give way to the minister if she is able to give us a date just now.

There is nothing.

Portfolio question time does not give enough time to scrutinise a report of nearly 400 pages. The Scottish Government has made it clear that it does not want to talk about the review, as it has been dodging every opportunity to make a statement. The worst of it is that Scotland will end up being an outlier. Other countries, including Belgium and the Netherlands, are implementing policies that are similar to the recommendations that are contained in the Cass review. [Interruption.]

My colleague invited members on the Government benches to intervene, but they have not done so. Keith Brown seems to have plenty to say from a sedentary position, so I invite him to take to his feet.

I call Meghan Gallacher. [Interruption.] Ms Gallacher—do continue.

The SNP cannot bring itself—[Interruption.]—to put a pause on puberty blockers until a final decision is made on the future of gender care in Scotland, but it needs to understand that caution must be used when we look at this issue. Children and young people cannot wait weeks or months for the Government to get its act together. We have heard every excuse, despite the issue of puberty blockers and gender care having been raised by MSPs in the chamber for years. I will continue to raise the issue not just because I am deeply concerned about the lack of evidence to protect our children, but because the Government cannot be allowed to bury its head in the sand any longer.

I will finish by repeating what I said yesterday, which is that

“Parents, carers, young people and those who have been failed by gender-affirming care in Scotland”—[Official Report, 16 April 2024; c 4.]

need and “deserve answers”. The Scottish Government is failing them by refusing to respond.

Therefore, I move amendment S6M-12867.1, after

“followed by Financial Resolution: Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill”

to insert—

“Ministerial Statement: Scottish Government Response to the Cass Review”.

I call Jackie Baillie to speak against the motion.

17:15  

I wish to speak against the business motion. I agree with many of the comments from Meghan Gallacher, but standing orders prevent me from speaking directly to the amendment.

However, I wish to express disappointment that there is not a statement on the Cass review in the business for next week. The report from Dr Hilary Cass is of considerable importance for the Scottish Government, the clinicians involved in the Sandyford specialist service and children and young people with gender dysphoria.

Despite that, the Scottish Government’s position is, to be frank, incoherent. First, ministers said that the matter is nothing to do with the Government and that it is for clinicians to decide. Now, we have the Government involved in working groups to consider the recommendations. It simply cannot have it both ways.

Ministers, and now back benchers, say that they need time, but they have had Dr Cass’s interim report since February 2022, they received her recommendations on puberty blockers more recently, and Scottish Government officials and clinicians have been talking to her during the whole course of the review. Therefore, her recommendations should not come as a surprise.

During the passage of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, ministers rejected amendments to do with the Cass review from your colleague Claire Baker and others, and they dismissed the review entirely. Do you believe that they are going to dismiss the fully published Cass review entirely?

I genuinely hope that they do not. I would like to see the Cass review being implemented in full. It is a considered evidence-based report, and ignoring it will let down staff and a generation of young people and their families.

Making a statement to Parliament on the report is the very least that we should expect, because this is ultimately about openness and transparency and about doing the right thing for gender dysphoria services in Scotland.

Presiding Officer, let me illustrate. Since the Cass report came out, the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health, Jenny Minto, who is not here, and the chief medical officer have been backwards and forwards—[Interruption.]—

I am here.

Oh. I am sorry—I did not see the minister. I correct what I said. I am delighted to see the minister here, so that she can confirm what I am about to say. She and the CMO have been backwards and forwards to Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board, but no one can decide what to do about puberty blockers or who should actually take the decision on them. A press release is, I am told, to be issued tomorrow after First Minister’s question time. Is it not always the case that the SNP Government cares more about the optics than the substance?

The Government cannot continue to hide away behind closed doors on an issue of such importance. I urge ministers to allow a statement on the Cass report next week. Parliament should be treated with respect, and so should the people of Scotland.

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, for up to five minutes.

17:18  

I refer members to the comments that I made just over 24 hours ago. I also add, once again, that the Scottish Government will make its views known when it has reviewed the information, and we will take it from there.

The question is, that amendment S6M-12867.1, in the name of Meghan Gallacher, which seeks to amend motion S6M-12867, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

17:19 Meeting suspended.  

17:21 On resuming—  

Members should cast their votes now.

The vote is closed.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect. I would have voted yes.

Thank you, Ms Gosal. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)

Abstentions

Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)

The result of the division on amendment S6M-12867.1, in the name of Meghan Gallacher, is: For 53, Against 60, Abstentions 5.

Amendment disagreed to.

The next question is, that motion S6M-12867, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following programme of business—

Tuesday 23 April 2024

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill

followed by Financial Resolution: Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill

followed by Appointment of Members of the Standards Commission for Scotland

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 24 April 2024

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;
Justice and Home Affairs

followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

9.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 25 April 2024

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills

followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

Tuesday 30 April 2024

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 1 May 2024

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Wellbeing Economy, Net Zero and Energy;
Finance and Parliamentary Business

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 2 May 2024

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Transport

followed by Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee Debate: Petition PE1887: Create an Unborn Victims of Violence Act

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 22 April 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.

The next item of business is consideration of business motions S6M-12868, on a stage 1 timetable for a bill, and S6M-12869 and S6M-12870, on stage 2 timetables for bills.

Motions moved,

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill at stage 1 be completed by 28 June 2024.

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill at stage 2 be completed by 3 May 2024.

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Bill at stage 2 be completed by 3 May 2024.—[George Adam]

Motions agreed to.